Why Cadillac will never be the same as the Germans: Why that's a good thing.

"mcseanerson" (mcseanerson) 12/22/2013 at 20:29 • Filed to: Cadillac BMW Mercedes Audi

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Earlier today a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! was made about why Cadillac will never rival the Germans and a lot of people seemed to be upset by this. I'm not sure why because I am happy that Cadillac is not chasing the Germans.

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Now some people will be quick to point out how Cadillac, as well as every sport sedan manufacturer !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , has made a point of chasing BMW for some time. I don't think Cadillac is necessarily chasing actual BMW but something more like the idea of BMW people have made up in their mind of what BMW is. Kind of like how everyone has a made up image of who !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! or !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is people drank the kool-aid and they bought the ultimate driving machine line. That or they just think it's the ultimate leasing machine and they don't care.

Cadillac isn't chasing the 320i which everybody already agrees is garbage, they're chasing the BMW in peoples minds which is to say the ultimate sports sedan. In other words Cadillac is trying to be the best Cadillac that Cadillac can be. They aren't trying to beat anyone else's lap times anymore because they've already passed them, they're chasing they're ghost laps trying to squeeze out those extra fractions of seconds that everyone else gave up on.

The important thing is though it's not a matter of whether or not Cadillac is worth comparing to the Germans anymore. If we can all be honest with ourselves and remove our own biases we know that they easily compete with them, and more importantly surpass them. The issue is the perception of Cadillac versus the perception of the Germans. That comes down to old school euro snobbery. It's the reason that Volvo is aiming for the Luxury market when really they don't belong there and it's why Alfa Romeo is chasing after it when really they're just the Italian Pontiac. European brands are considered exotic and therefore Luxurious. The only thing Luxurious about the European brands is the home of the guy who owns the dealership after he rakes in all the cash from the service department.

The real challenge for Cadillac will be overcoming the perception of being less and the way to do that is with a halo car like the Elmiraj.

Step 2 is heave publicity on a big name racing series that will put that sporting image in the public's mind. We say sports cars only matter to us but look at Audi

Mercedes

BMW

Even in Germany it's still win on Sunday sell on Monday.

For right now none of that matters though. Right now Cadillac already does compete with the Germans and it's a fight they're winning. As long as John Q. Public hasn't figured it out yet it just means better prices for you and me.

The Transporter > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 20:54

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Well, it's no Le Mans, but Cadillac did win the 2013 Pirelli World Cup Challenge GTS championship.

mcseanerson > The Transporter 12/22/2013 at 21:01

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Yeah, you and me are well aware of this and I have loved Cadillac for competing in this series as well as using Katech motors, because Katech , but Joe Blow shopping for his new lease has no idea what this is. Granted Joe Blow typically doesn't know dtm, Le Mans, or F1 but that stands a better chance than this.

Dslay04 > The Transporter 12/22/2013 at 21:07

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Maybe they should field a DTM car. That would really cause them to shit a brick.

The Transporter > Dslay04 12/22/2013 at 21:18

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If they field a DTM team and win, and keep on winning till they win a championship, then the anal irritation from ze Germans would cause a shock wave that would rival Krakatoa.

Manuél Ferrari > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 21:23

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Caddy definitely chased BMW. I don't think they chased the perception of what BMW is. I think they chased the reality of what BMW was . The F30 3 series wasn't out yet when GM started development on the ATS. So the ATS ended up being a sports sedan that made sportiness a priority, whereas the F30 (in stock form) became more like a Lexus IS or Mercedes C Class. A stripper F30 (whether 320i, 328i or 335i) that doesn't have the adjustable suspension or the fixed sports suspension is not a sports sedan. It's just a sedan. BMW softened the car up to appeal to a wider audience.

I think what GM is doing is really smart. Caddy was a mainstream success way before BMW was (especially in the US). GM saw how popular bimmers got in the 90s and realized it should put more focus on building cars that handled well. There is nothing wrong with Caddy emulating prior generations of the 3 and 5 Series. Those were good cars and now Caddy is making good cars that are as sporty or sportier than the latest from BMW. My friend has a new ATS and I love it. The end result of GM's planning and development was an awesome car that can go toe to toe with any car in its segment.

Dslay04 > The Transporter 12/22/2013 at 21:29

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Would be a good fit for the ATS Coupe.

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 21:31

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But what i love about the F30 is that i can order the M-adaptive suspension a la cart without having to pay for all kinds of crap i don't want.

Anon > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 21:33

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With that title I was legitimenly supprised that this wasn't written by His Stigness.

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 21:34

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I am happy about that too. I like that you can order an F30 with just what you want and nothing that you don't want.

I just think it's a shame that a stripped down car without the M-adaptive suspension or the fixed sports suspension has become so soft. A stripped 3 Series was always sportier than a stripped competitor's car. Now I'm not sure that's the case anymore.

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 21:37

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True but the fact that you can spec a 328 rwd 6MT M-sport with no options for about 43k is sweet.

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 21:40

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And I like that you can spec a 320i that way too. I don't think the 320i is as bad as the OP does. If someone is short on cash but really wants a new car he could get a 320i 6MT ZHP and chip tune it later when the warranty is up.

duurtlang > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 21:43

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"The issue is the perception of Cadillac versus the perception of the Germans. That comes down to old school euro snobbery. It's the reason that Volvo is aiming for the Luxury market when really they don't belong there and it's why Alfa Romeo is chasing after it when really they're just the Italian Pontiac. European brands are considered exotic and therefore Luxurious."

I'm sorry, but you're full of it here. You're absolutely right about this all being about perception. It, however, has nothing to do with the country of origin and very little with snobbery. The German three have built a name for themselves by building great cars over a longer period of time. Period. Cadillac is incredibly new to the concept of great cars and thus lacks the perceived prestige. This will change, assuming they stay on the path they're on. Give it some time. Oh, and your comment about Alfa made me facepalm hard, unless when you're only talking about the last few years, which you didn't seem to do.

There's no reason to shit on the Germans because you're a Cadillac fanboy. That's weak and childish. Cadillac suddenly has great cars, use this observation in a positive way to further your argument.

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 21:45

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The 320 is nice there is a purity to it that I find appealing...for me the only hang up is that you can get a new 320 or a CPO 328...decisions, decisions

/ jaloproblems :)

The Transporter > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 21:48

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John Blow doesn't, but ze Germans do. If Cadillac were to field a LMP1 or, dare I say it, an F1 team and win... well, it might not be enough to waiver the mindless devotion of ze Germans, but it may be enough to take them down a peg in Europe as a whole. And that is what Cadillac can use. If n number of Europeans would prefer a Cadillac over a BMW or Mercedes Benz, then that is something that might sway Mr. John Blow USA to buy one.

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 21:48

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Haha /jaloproblems indeed :)

Oh I just remembered something that would piss you off too. My friend who has a 2008 A4 Avant S-Line stopped by today. He only has ONE baby and he is complaining that his car is too "small". He said he "wants a Tahoe".

We're all doomed...

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 21:51

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I'm not mad...now there will one more Avant on the used market for the "enlightened ones"

/jalopsilverlining :)

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 21:53

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Haha true. But the downside is that less new Avants will be sold if everyone thinks you need a tall SUV when you have kids. And less new sales means less used car deals in the future...

The funny thing is that my friend isn't even tall. So it's not like it's a huge hassle for him to bend down when putting his baby in the baby seat.

The Transporter > duurtlang 12/22/2013 at 21:54

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Cadillac is incredibly new to the concept of great cars and thus lacks the perceived prestige.

Then how do you explain the phrase "It's the Cadillac of (insert product here)." Cadillac's prestige is just as deeply rooted as Mercedes Benz. Granted, that prestige has been tarnished by GM mismanagement, but it's never really gone away.

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 21:58

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Well since new Avants are already gone from the market...I'll take what i can get. :)

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 22:00

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So sad. Bring back the wagons!

Collin > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 22:01

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The penultimate sports sedan? The second to last sports sedan? I don't think Cadillac is interested in being second to last at anything.

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 22:03

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You are my only hope Volvo! Viva la V60!

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 22:04

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And hopefully the Caddy CTS-V wagon gets a successor!

Tom McParland > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 22:05

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I hope so too but not likely

Manuél Ferrari > Tom McParland 12/22/2013 at 22:07

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I know ;(

Sales figures were so low...

mcseanerson > Collin 12/22/2013 at 22:10

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Oh no, my vocabulary is showing. Well you know what they say, be careful you might choke on those big words. Fixed.

mcseanerson > The Transporter 12/22/2013 at 22:12

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I think that le mans might fit the best for Cadillac to make a domination play for because very few manufacturers have said "You know, we should start a winning F1 team" and had it turn out well.

Collin > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 22:28

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Sorry, I could have probably been more polite about that. I blame it on a stressful night at work.

mcseanerson > duurtlang 12/22/2013 at 22:28

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America had the Malaise era. Countries outside North America seemed to weather it better. Guys who are in the know will telly you how luxury was easily defined by Cadillac and the like pre-1970. Do you still start your car with a hand crank? No? Thank Cadillac for that. How about those oil lamps to light your way? No, using electric headlights like everyone else? Thank Cadillac. How about the v16 that all those forward thinking luxury brands were the first to produce? Oh wait, that was Cadillac too. It's easy to look down on brands that have fallen and forget how great they once were. Imagine if Pontiac was killed off in 1973 instead of 2010. There would be no g6, no grand am, no aztek. They would be missed terribly and nobody would have a good reason to mock them other than jealousy.

mcseanerson > Collin 12/22/2013 at 22:30

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No, I'm more than glad that you pointed it out the way you did. I have tons of "friends" who try to use their vocabulary to lord over people they deem less than them and I've always appreciated people with the eloquence to get their point across in the simplest terms. I wasn't being me writing that line, just writing what I thought people wanted to hear.

Manuél Ferrari > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 22:43

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You hit the nail on the head. The Malaise Era hurt Cadillac greatly. Before that era hit BMW was a pimple compared to Caddy.

IMO the only reason Mercedes and BMW got as big as they did in the states was they bounced back from the Malaise Era quicker. GM got past its technical issues rather quickly but then was hampered by mismanagement. Now it makes great cars again and has to win the hearts of the younger buyers who don't know car history and therefore don't know how great Caddy was. Kids born in the 80s and 90s thought of Caddies as old people cars.

I think things will change pretty quickly. Not only does Caddy make great drivers cars now but they're kind of more hip than bimmers because of the over saturation of BMWs in the marketplace.

mr2gud2u > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 22:58

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Its pretty cool to see Cadillac go from making highway cruiser to making fire breathing, meat eating sports sedans. The fact is folks on here will never take Caddy seriously. It doesn't matter what Nurburg times it runs. Its an American car so it will always be pigeon holed. I'm not a Caddy fan boy, I just call it how I see it.

mcseanerson > mr2gud2u 12/22/2013 at 23:05

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There are lots of guys on here and elsewhere who still respect American cars and also like sports cars. I am a diehard GM guy but I try not to let my bias get in the way or at least recognize when I'm being biased. I think in the areas the new Cadillacs compete in I would buy an ATS, a CTS, or even the Elmiraj if GM ever makes it at the same price or even a little more than their competitors.

I know others who's first desire is a good sports car and are entirely open to it being an American car. Every time someone say BRZ or that some of the best competitors are the v6 mustang with the track pack (I hate that they changed the name of that package. They had it right the first time.) or a used Corvette Z06.

mr2gud2u > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 23:19

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Ill tell you a secret..... most people that say the BRZ is a great handling track car and that's why they bought it have no intention of ever tracking it. Truth be told the Toyobaru is a step in the right direction for affordable modern JMD sports cars

MDP310 > Manuél Ferrari 12/22/2013 at 23:43

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My grandfather had an 80-something Seville. It was awesome because I was 7, but then the headliner started falling down and the car just overall fell apart. My dad had an Olds Cutlass that had its alternator go out and leave us stranded across from Yankee Stadium at 2 AM. Since then my parents have had Hondas.

I just got an ATS yesterday. I always WANTED Cadillac to be great, for the longest time they were an also-ran next to Ze Germans. And there was always that lingering "Shitty late 80s, early 90s American cars falling apart on me" thing. But they're sure as hell kicking ass now. Audis are very clean looking, MB and BMW look weird to me, Cadillacs are all cool and faceted and it's like your car is a diamond. I fell in love with their styling when the original CTS came out.

GTCL > mcseanerson 12/22/2013 at 23:45

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I was talking to a guy I work with about cars the day before the mega millions lottery. He was asking, "what should I buy if I win?" So we were talking about cars for the wife, and I said without hesitation CTS-V wagon. He had never seen or heard of one, but the first thing he says to me is that Cadillac is for older boring people. I tell him no way, and describe the car to him. He still doesn't get it. They next day we are both off, and I get a text while I'm eating lunch. It is from him, and he tells me he just saw the CTS-V wagon with the giant Brembos on it. He immediately says he was wrong and I was right. He loved it. Oh well, he didn't win the mega millions, and neither did I. We can always dream.

mcseanerson > mr2gud2u 12/22/2013 at 23:52

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I think it's a great injection to the market to get the usual suspects moving again. I think we're about to see the best Miata ever and I hope it wakes up Nissan.

mcseanerson > GTCL 12/22/2013 at 23:56

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Yeah I love when people at work wanna talk cars. Great lines come out. "Oh yeah I drove my Toyota minivan racing against some guy in a Taurus the other day and I totally left him in my dust."

Manuél Ferrari > MDP310 12/23/2013 at 00:20

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I remember the failing headliner days of the 80s! Gawd they were terrible! Not as terrible as getting stranded in NYC at 2AM though!!!!

Congrats on your new ATS! What color is it? My buddy's ATS is black on black. It looks so sharp, especially at night.

Dennis loves you too > mcseanerson 12/23/2013 at 05:15

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How about your wrong because history some of us learned from being burnt by gm to never ever trust a single dollar of our hard earned money on a bad bet twice

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > mcseanerson 12/23/2013 at 06:18

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"Earlier today a post was made about why Cadillac will never rival the Germans and a lot of people seemed to be upset by this. I'm not sure why because I am happy that Cadillac is not chasing the Germans"

The only thing that annoyed me was the fact that it was the fifth, tenth(? I've lost count at this point) time he has posted the same god damn article. I mean we fucking get it already, he thinks German cars are the be all end all of EVERYTHING. Move on and stop beating us over the head with it.

MDP310 > Manuél Ferrari 12/23/2013 at 07:00

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White outside, black/tan inside.

Party-vi > mcseanerson 12/23/2013 at 08:48

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I agree except with Step 2. Go ask any BMW or Audi or Mercedes owner you see about they're brands' recent motorsport wins and you'll get a blank stare. The majority of people don't buy the German luxury brands for racing heritage but for the badge. That is why Cadillac is benchmarking BMW - the badge. Cadillac thinks that, by showing consumers "hey our car is just as fast and look it has the same features" they'll pull people into dealerships because luxury car buyers are looking for a good deal. The point of buying a luxury car is that you're spending more money than necessary to show your neighbors how well-off you are. No one is looking for a cheaper luxury car. Cadillac tried this with the old CTS (a 5 series car for 3 series money) and that didn't do too well - people saw it as a 3 series competitor because of the price.

Cadillac is making amazing cars, but no one cares because this:

Doesn't look like this:

mcseanerson > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/23/2013 at 10:57

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Yeah, if he actually thinks that the Americans make cars that aren't competitive that's just delusional, but if he's trying to make the point that nobody will ever view them as equals than that is the matter of overcoming perception and that can be difficult with certain markets where people have written off America for a while.

mcseanerson > Party-vi 12/23/2013 at 11:01

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I agree Joe Blow Audi owner has no idea how much Audi has dominated Le Mans but you get the sense of their racing heritage in the brand and it's because guys like us are aware of it. Cadillac just needs to dominate a mainstream (ha, just made myself laugh a bit there.) racing series. Nascar would be a bad idea, but most any other big series.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > mcseanerson 12/23/2013 at 11:05

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I think he just can't see past his fanboi blinders and has no intention to try.

mcseanerson > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/23/2013 at 11:23

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That could be true and that's the problem that brands like Cadillac are facing. Maybe Lincoln is the smart one waiting on the bench for Cadillac to prove that an American luxury brand should be taken seriously. Something tells me that wasn't their master plan though.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > mcseanerson 12/23/2013 at 11:25

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Lincoln have a plan? Heh that's funny.

mcseanerson > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 12/23/2013 at 11:43

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Well I am a comedian. I'm just waiting for Jerry to call me to go get some coffee in his Porsche.

Manuél Ferrari > MDP310 12/23/2013 at 14:22

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WHOA

That black and tan combo with the tan stitching is sick!

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/03/2014 at 20:57

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No no no no no

Halo cars = a myth... nobody, for example, goes to Nissan, checks out a GT-R, and leaves with a Sentra

"Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" = another myth... Mercedes was out of racing for decades and was deemed the pinnacle of luxury. Selling luxury cars (and sports cars for that matter- Jaguar, Lambo) has nothing to do with racing.

The 3 sausage thing is also a huge myth... MB, BMW, Audi have all been going crazy niche because the 3 sausage markets (3, 5, 7) are saturated. Lexus' top selling models are the RX and ES by a long shot. X5 sells about the same in volume as the 5 and handily outsells the 7.

Outside of the coincidence that the German legacy is in the 3/5/7 architecture there is no reason for Caddy to adopt that strategy. The big luxury success breakouts have generally been slight to huge deviations from the German 3/5/7 mold. Chrysler 300C, Lexus RX & ES, original CTS, G35, etc. The main market for luxury cars doesn't care about sporty handling or racing pedigree... never has. Caddy should focus on cars that are

- striking & highly stylish in and out

- class leaders in fuel efficiency and cleanness

- high tech

- drawing on the valuable aspects of Cadillac's history

If someone wants a 3/5/7 German car they will buy a German car. As all the niches made by the Germans and the success of non 3/5/7 luxury cars shows though there are plenty of people who don't.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 00:12

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I disagree. It might not make a huge difference but it tends to affect those who are the most vocal. You can't tell me there aren't guys who've gone to a dealership to catch a glimpse of a viper to buy a neon srt because they have similar badges or that people never buy nascar edition monte carlos with all the decals because I've met and talked to these people. Even though their information is often not the most accurate they are among the most enthusiastic ambassadors for their brands.

And of course nobody goes to the Nissan dealership to look at a GT-R and then buys a sentra, that thing hasn't been truly updated for over a decade. My wife and I did on the other hand go to the Nissan dealership, ogle a GT-R, and then test drive a Juke. Halo cars might not seal the deal but they get you in the door. It's up to the rest of the products and the staff to close.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 07:50

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You are right, it doesn't make a huge difference, which is exactly my point. Not to mention, you are talking about sports/performance cars, not luxury car buyers. Someone in the market for a 3 series is either one of those young women looking to do a cheap lease or a male enthusiast... neither of whom need to be lured into the dealership by M3s or 7-series'.

And the GT-R was just an example; in any case though the Sentra was just updated within the last 2-3 years I think; maybe less. But the details are irrelevant. The point is the idea that a brand NEEDS a "halo car" to get foot traffic into its dealerships is false and also inherently flawed. Your misinformed rebuttal about the Sentra speaks to that- what difference does the GT-R make if the volume cars suck? That was the situation Mitsubishi had until they cancelled the EVO and look where that got them.

No, success in the luxury automotive realm comes from where success does in any business. Making products people want to buy in a quality matter at a competitive price. Halo cars and other internet fantasy business plan fodder don't hold weight in the real world and we've seen it a thousand times.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 08:05

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I know that the sentra has been "updated." Just nothing meaningful has been done, nothing to give it any real competitive advantage over it's competitors.

Yes obviously nobody needs to lure the masses who are already drinking the kool aid into the BMW dealership.

American brands outside of the midwest and some parts of the south typically have to work pretty hard to get foot traffic. Even if it's not foot traffic it could just be a talking point to get people to even remember the brand exists.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 08:20

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None of its competitors have any huge advantages over it either.

BMW builds cars people want and sells the image/lifestyle its customers want. That's smart business. You drink the Kool Aid too, just a different flavor. Just like BMWs are no longer 'the ultimate driving machines' stuff like halo cars are still a net negative. Why dump money into a Viper to get people into dealerships if the volume cars are still trash (not that they still are but for a long time they were)? If you make good cars all through your lineup you don't need a halo car.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 08:26

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There are a lot of people who won't even consider an American car these days without something big to shake them up and get them thinking.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 08:39

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Vipers don't get people to buy Avengers and Calibers. The "big shake up" has to be in the segment of the cars these people are in the market for. I.e. Chrysler redoing the 200 will help 200 sales way more than any Viper ever could.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 08:47

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A redone 200 will not reach certain target customers no matte how nice because some people have it in their mind that all american cars are garbage. Sometimes you need something big to reach these people. Granted a Viper has little effect today but I'm sure when it came out it brought a lot of people to Dodges showrooms. Of course you won't sell anymore avengers or calibers with a halo car like the viper. This isn't a this or that argument, it's a both and argument. Cadillac already has the improved lineup, they just need something to get the uninformed in the door.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 08:54

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That something is well spent marketing money, not billions of dollars dumped into a halo car nobody is going to buy that has no effect on the sales or quality of the volume cars that support these businesses.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 09:05

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An Elmiraj would be like a Mercedes CL. Nobody buys those?

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 09:17

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No, an Elmiraj isn't anything like a Mercedes CL. Mercedes already has the platform, engines, and customer base happy to pay 6 figures for their cars. GM doesn't. Mercedes doesn't make the CL to lure customers in for its cheaper cars... it makes the CL for reasons all car makers are supposed to make cars: because there is a market for them to make and sell them profitably.

I don't think the Elmiraj is a terrible idea completely... if they used its styling and proportions to make a CTS coupe that would work. But as a halo car, no way. Halo cars don't work.

My question to you is how does a halo car people have to go to the dealerships to see get people to dealerships any better than marketing and optimizing the actual cars the manufacturers want to buy? What is going to get more people to a Nissan dealership... a GT-R the average buyer doesn't know or care about or commercials and ads for their volume cars?

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 10:02

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Halo cars are part of marketing. I'm not saying that it has to be so single sided that you can only have a halo car or develop and market your regular product. You keep driving that if you push a halo car you have apparently squandered all your budget and can not further develop your and market the rest of your lineup properly. There is no point in developing a halo car if you don't develop the rest of the products. I don't think it would even be that expensive for GM to develop the Elmiraj because unlike your earlier statement GM does have engines, it has lots of engines. As for a platform GM has been back and forth developing a large rwd platform for years now and would do well to release a full size sedan on it to replace the XTS. Not that the XTS is a terrible vehicle, just that the new Impala looks amazing and offers nearly the same content across the board for significantly less money. As for customers that is the whole reason Cadillac needs to develop a car like this, so they can penetrate the luxury market further and reach so many people who still would not consider an American luxury vehicle no matter how good the CTS and ATS are.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 10:12

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I think if a manufacturer has a choice to build a halo car which will only reach a few people vs put money into improving their bread and butter cars and marketing which will reach a lot of people the choice is obvious. Even if GM has the parts and the cash to make a halo car, that money is better spent elsewhere to maximize impact. Pretty much every successful volume car company at the moment does NOT have a halo car, because manufacturers realize they are a waste of resources without a profitable business model.

I mean say the Elmiraj were 100K... who would buy one over a 911, or M6, or Jag XK, or AM V8 Vantage? Better to put those dollars into the cars and related marketing in the segments and price points Cadillac can actually penetrate. XTS is fine and is probably more profitable than the large RWD sedan at 2x the price that nobody would buy would be.

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 10:34

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That is not the target market for a car like this. The Elmiraj would compete with cars like the Bentley Continental. There is a market that GM could penetrate. Look at the typical Continental customer and the typical Escalade customer. I still don't know why you're so obsessed with GM dumping every penny into their bread and butter. They are already spending a ton of time developing those cars. More money and more man hours doesn't continue to improve a car at the same rate. I could get if the CTS and the ATS were steaming piles like the Avenger and Caliber you referenced but they aren't. They're already competitive enough to be considered class leading depending on what day of the week it is. There is no reason GM can not develop a car like the Elmiraj and continue to develop their more common vehicles as well. It's not like their is some scolding parent at GM R&D who is telling them you can't develop an Elmiraj until the CTS and ATS are the absolute pinnacle of perfection like a child who can't have dessert until they eat their broccoli. On top of that the more money GM spends developing these cars the more they will have to charge for them to make a profit and the more the same people GM had such a hard time getting in the door will complain that it's not the value proposition they were hoping for.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 10:43

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The ATS & CTS have CUE which is trash. GM would be wise to spend $$$ fixing that. ATS & CTS are in segments that have pretty much reached saturation. If they develop another car for Cadillac it should be something that will increase volume and be in the price range that customers associate with the brand. NOBODY will buy an Elmiraj at even half the price of a Continental and in any case the Continental's market is basically non-existent. They only sell about 2000-3000 cars a year in the US. Remember the XLR???

mcseanerson > PardonMyFlemish16 04/04/2014 at 10:51

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Not sure what an XLR has to do with this. Just because a market is low volume doesn't mean it can't be profitable. I'd be shocked if GM wasn't already working on fixing CUE. You keep saying GM can't do this because they need to do that. It's like you think GM only has like three engineers who can only work one project at a time or they have this money barrel that if they develop the Elmiraj it will go empty and there will be no money left for other projects. These are all issues I'm confident are already being addressed and I think GM could develop the Elmiraj without sacrificing any of those projects.

PardonMyFlemish16 > mcseanerson 04/04/2014 at 11:04

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It's not just that GM only has a certain amount of resources. I am sure they have the resources to do what they need to do and build the Elmiraj. That's not my point. My point is the Elmiraj will not help their bottom line. Of all the places they should put resources, a "halo car" is probably the last. I like the Elmiraj; I think it's beautiful; I would like GM to build it or use its design language in their lineup. But I stop there. Me (or you) really liking it doesn't make it a good business idea, and you really liking the car is the only thing you've convinced me about.